ONN regularly publishes Jill's work, so I asked Jill to interview me, by email. We exchanged email a few months ago, and here is the interview, in three parts.

Jill H L: Let's start by talking about the purpose of the Online Noetic Network (ONN). What is ONN's perspective?

Joel: The Online Noetic Network is dedicated to noetic vision. Noetic vision takes a look at life through a foreground of mind and consciousness. It values experience and subjectivity. It asks: what is life like when it's lived with attention to life itself?

ONN publishes writings that present the side of life that is usually overlooked when people examine the mind. From the usual perspective, human experience is boxed into an objective science; psychology ignores intuition; spirituality becomes religion and belief; we bastardize love into romance or sex.

Jill H L: Why did you create ONN? Did it seem an overwhelming task? How did the idea come to you?

Joel: Lots of reasons. Because I wanted to be able to go online and read some email that I liked and excited me more than words from HOT4U and SxyBlkSkrt. (I started out on America Online.) Because I found email to be an excellent medium for talk that is intellectual, yet spontaneous and casual. Because I saw that many people spoke in their email with an honest and straight-forward voice. Because online correspondence is a new medium that has very little content of the heart and spirit. [That was true at its beginnings, but now spirituality is popping up all over the web.]

ONN began slowly, so it did not seem overwhelming -- at first it was small and loosely organized email groups. That grew into a central member group and a source of publications. At first it was volunteer work for me, inspired by the member groups of the Institute of Noetic Sciences and my years coordinating a local group. But I soon saw that it required a great deal of time on my part, and provided a valuable service to the members. I decided to collect small fees through memberships and sales of articles, and devote my time to it.

Jill H L: You seem to want ONN to be more than just a source of publications.

Joel: Since I began, I've wanted to make ONN a comfy, homey place. I wanted a community, not just a computer network. A place where people felt invited to just be themselves, to look into themselves, and speak honest words. I hate when "spirituality" get pretentious and intellectual. Spirit is the ground that we all have in common, the basis of life and consciousness. When spirituality becomes esoteric, it is far from the source. Simple and unsophisticated can be deep and true.

In order to make it a home for anyone, I made it more personal to me, so it looks like my home. I put my name all over the place. "ONN is coordinated ." This was kind of weird. I certainly don't want to sound egotistical. I want to say, "Hey! This is my home. Welcome. I hope you feel at home, too." I'd love suggestions on how to make it a more inviting and interactive place.

Jill H L: How long has your focus been on spiritually oriented things?

Joel: Since I began to look at myself with eyes that were my own, not my parents' or teachers'. About twenty-five years ago, I began to looking at things carefully, looking for something more. (I'm now 45.)

Jill H L: What kind of religious upbringing did you have as a child? What was your homelife like when you were a kid? Did your parents have deep philosophical talks around the dinner table? Did you?

Joel: No talks more philosophical than the quality of the roast beef. I was raised in a normal, safe, secure, middle class, suburban, Jewish family. But my high school friends and I were different. We didn't talk about sports; and even, sometimes, we would talk about things besides girls. (Not very often, I must admit -- we were boys!)

Jill H L: Were your parents religious and practicing Jews? If so, were they Orthodox, Hasidic, reform etc.?

Joel: Yes, somewhat religious. We were conservative Jews, which is the branch of Judaism which I guess you could define as "somewhat religious."

Jill H L: What influence did this have on you and your beliefs?

Joel: I don't think it had any. My direction in life has nothing to do with my parent's religion.

Jill H L: I have been led to believe that Jews believe only that the memory of the person lives on, not the actual soul or spirit. Is this true?

Joel: This is true with contemporary Judaism. It is *not* true throughout Jewish history. Judaism has a great deal to say about spirit. I hope to publish excerpts of a book that talks about this, _Jewish Views of the Afterlife_, by Simcha Raphael.

Jill H L: If you were not taught that the soul lives on, how did you come to believe in the eternity of the human spirit and life after death?

Joel: Ahh, interesting question! Why do you think I believe in life after death? The Online Noetic Network is about the realms of experience and the essence of human consciousness. Through knowing this essence, we can be touching spirit and immersing ourselves in the moment. Life and death are certainly related :-) and life after death comes up when the topic is spirit, but it is not integral to my beliefs or the focus of ONN.

My focus is spiritually oriented, but not as a matter of "beliefs." By the word "spiritual," I do not mean anything vague or abstract. I mean that part of us that can not be defined, but can be known.

My beliefs? I really don't hold tight to my beliefs. I do not honor beliefs. I have many, but I don't hold them high. I am into *experience* -- that is, what can be known directly. Our thoughts, our minds, our consciousness, ourselves, the moment, life: these can be known. Life after death? I have come closer to dying than anybody I've heard of, so I am now, I guess you could say, living after dying; but I'm not going to make life after death a big part of ONN. I'm into living; I've had enough of dying.

ONN's focus is on life, that is, its energy and flow. This is a powerful and far-reaching subject, and far more profound than it may appear. This world and society, our homes and friends: these are all things that we can see through the window of consciousness, and what we usually talk about. But here the topic is the window itself, the house we live in, and the person living inside.

Jill H L: When you say you do not hold "beliefs" in high regard, does this mean you do not believe in life after death? No, let me ask it straight out: do you believe in life after death? Does a person survive what we call death in your opinion?

Joel: My opinions don't mean much. We're talking about the governing power of the universe, the infinite and eternal energy which bursts out of itself in beauty. My opinion? I give opinions about political elections, perhaps, but not something beyond my mind.

Jill H L: Well, what is it about spirit that interests you?

Joel: Let me say that I love spiritual stuff, but I hate "spiritual" stuff. I love things that remind me of my experiences, of my center. I love my inner experience of myself, so I love things with that flavor. I hate the spiritual scene.

Jill H L: I totally understand what you mean. It's almost like it defiles the sacred. Nonetheless, we are left with language - especially in this electronic venue - to communicate the uncommunicatable (huh?). So we limp along with it knowing that some words will carry baggage with them - in fact, all words carry baggage with them.

Joel: I'm glad you know what I mean. It's like the spiritual bookstore I live near. It's a very big one, with every book you've heard of, along with tapes and posters and incense and crystals. I like many of the books and tapes. I feel at home in the store -- but I hate it. It is not the books, posters, incense or crystals I don't like, but it is the whole "new age," "spiritual" scene.

Jill H L: Here's the definition of "spiritual" from the American Heritage Dictionary: 1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. 2. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul. 3. Of, from or pertaining to God, 4. of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred 5. Pertaining to or having the nature of spirits, supernatural.

I notice that you equate spirituality with religion (not brought up in the dictionary until definition #4). In my mind, the two are profoundly different with religion connoting a particular dogma and spirituality being universally inclusive and denoting the Divine spiritual truth of all human beings. How did the two get connected in your awareness, do you know?

Joel: Whoops!! Misunderstanding here. I never intended to say that spirituality is equal to religion. In my mind, they have little in common. Very little, if anything. Spirit is an experience and spiritual means having to do with it. Spirit exists; it is not "believed in." Spirit is an individual experience. Religion is a group thing, a bunch of behaviors and rules that is set up by some club we can elect to belong to, having to do with something that can't be seen or felt.

The experience of spirit is far beyond words and definitions and is not material, but is *not* intangible. It is not vague or known second-hand. In my universe of experience, when I use the word spirit, I refer to a tangible pinpoint.

Jill H L: There are several things you wrote that have made me think you equated religion and spirituality. You have said most unequivocally that you are not into the spiritual scene.

Joel: Yes, I did say that I am not into "spiritual" things. But I also said that I love spiritual things. I am most at home in this arena. It is "spiritual" things that I don't like. Those little quote marks make a big difference. "Spiritual" is a label. Labels go on the outside of the package. But in this case, the package happens to be myself, and spirituality is known only on the inside. My inside feels like my home. Labels feel foreign and superficial.

Jill H L: I totally and wholly agree with you. Could you elaborate a bit more on spirit as a tangible pinpoint? What do you mean?

Joel: That's a tough one. You're asking how I know that internal arena of spirituality. I have only more labels: my lover and friend, my host and guest, my sponsor and escort; the presence of my center, the strength of myself, an awareness of my core; a feeling of direction, source, and destination. It's not to be put in words. It's personal. *Not private* -- but it's very personal.

Jill H L: How did the inspiration come to you of marrying your interest in the perspectives on experience with cyberland and the online medium? Have you been a computer aficionado for years and so it was just a natural blend?

Joel: I was a computer programmer for years. I did database applications on the PC platform. [In other words, I was putting together computer programs for local businesses, for entering information and printing reports. I did this on IBM compatible computers, rather than Macs -- another kind of little computer -- or mainframes -- the big ones.]

I was not an aficionado, I must point out. It was not a natural blend. My and my computer often fought. It was far too meticulous about details. Eventually, we were divorced.

Jill H L: I presume that means you knew about computers but you didn't like them particularly. Right?

Joel: That's for sure! I worked with them. I learned about them and knew a bunch. But I wasn't very fast at programming and often had a very hard time with it.

On the other hand, me and online correspondence is a natural blend. I am using everything I learned. Put noetic topics in the mix and the blend begins to bubble.

Jill H L: I guess I don't get it. Noetic, according to my dictionary, refers to things that can be known via the intellect. Are you saying that you're only interested in things that are known in your brain? My perception is that belief comes from the brain, but knowing (the knowing that you rhapsodize about so eloquently) comes via Mind with a capital M which exists in every cell in the body and stems from spirit. I am confused.

Joel: Well stated. I would say the same. It's a good question and something I'd like to talk about.The difference between us is the way we use the word Noetic. I use the word to refer to our ability to know and be conscious, and to knowingness in general, not only through the intellect. So, yes, belief comes via the brain. Knowingness comes via the mind. Noetic refers to the whole thing, from the senses to the most refined insight (the way I use it). The finest knowingness is consciousness of life and consciousness itself.

In case you haven't yet seen the ONN website, this is what I wrote there on the home page:

<<< This website is dedicated to the energy and entity called Life -- not the things in our lives, not what we think of our lives or what we're doing in them -- but dedicated to the flow and pulse which is life itself. Life holds a simple peace and a mighty power. The peace can anchor us from the inside and give clarity. The might can overpower chaos and resistance, both our own and that which is imposed. Our capacity for awareness is the door to enter this peace and power. >>>

and on another page:

<<< We humans are alive and awake, and we know it. We're aware and we feel life. We have subjective lives. Consciousness is the window through which we see the world. We usually concern ourselves only with what we see through the window.

Noetic vision sees the glass itself.

As the information age takes shape, people speculate about the potential of computers and technology races ahead with artificial intelligence. But there's a question we should ask first:

Do we know something computers never will?

Some people believe that awareness is produced by the processes of the brain; some that it is the fundamental element of the universe. Whatever we think, consciousness is the capacity that is closest to who we are.

Nous - A Greek word for mind, intelligence, and ways of knowing.

Noetic - Pertaining to the mind, or based on the understanding that consciousness and experience is of primary importance. Noetic Vision looks at the possibilities of the human mind and its potential.

The Online Noetic Network (ONN) is a community in dialog about the spiritual and creative side of noetic vision and the noetic sciences.>>>

My explanations on the website are pretty important. My focus with ONN is on life. Just good ol' life. It's not on death or what happens after it, not on metaphysics and not on altered states of consciousness. It is about the energy and experience which is life. I don't mean life as in "my life's a drag" or "I'm doing beautiful things in my life." I mean life, the thing all by itself.

Jill H L: How much did your own brink-of-death experience have to do with your interest in these subjects?

Joel: Lots. When the rug is pulled out from under you, and everything in your life changes, then the spotlight will shine on anything that is stable. After my injury, everything changed: home, family, friends, skills, body, personality, memories, aptitudes, understandings, the whole kit and caboodle. But one thing shone: my experience of spirit, that which doesn't change.